Meeting on November 3, 2008
Agenda
- Attendance
- Announce agenda
- Introduction to the IRC meetings
- Summary of internal developer meeting on the future of Opticks
- The state of Opticks
- How to get more contributions
- FLOSS manuals
- Plug-in developer scripts
- Open questions
- Summary and closing
Notes
Attendance
- tclarke
- kstrieth
- rfoehan
- raevans
- goffena
- gmartin-cn
Summary
The agenda was discussed. An introduction to the meeting format was discussed including how to vote on issues, when issues discussion will end, and how to indicate attendance. Information was presented and discussed on high priority features. The near term release schedule was discussed as well as information on the binary breaking trunk. Input was elicited on the problem of developer and user contributions to the project. A couple of solutions were discussed including the use of FLOSS manuals as a way of editing and publishing user documentation.
Decisions
There will be a vote during the next meeting to decide if we will officially recommend FLOSS manualsfor editing and publishing user documentation. A simple majority of attendees will be sufficient for this recommendation to proceed.
Logs
| *** | Opened channel log for #opticks at 11/3/2008 2:03:01 PM | |
| 14:04 | tclarke | ok, let's start off with attendance, please respond if you're here for the meeting so I know who is idle and who is in attendance |
| 14:05 | rforehan | Here |
| 14:05 | raevans | Here |
| 14:05 | kstreith | Here |
| 14:05 | tclarke | Here's a summary of the agenda |
| 14:05 | goffena | h |
| 14:06 | tclarke | # Attendance |
| 14:06 | tclarke | # Announce agenda |
| 14:06 | tclarke | # Introduction to the IRC meetings |
| 14:06 | tclarke | # Summary of internal developer meeting on the future of Opticks |
| 14:06 | tclarke | # The state of Opticks |
| 14:06 | tclarke | # How to get more contributions |
| 14:06 | tclarke | # FLOSS manuals |
| 14:06 | tclarke | # Plug-in developer scripts |
| 14:06 | tclarke | # Open questions |
| 14:06 | tclarke | # Summary and closing |
| 14:06 | tclarke | here's a brief intro to how these meetings will work |
| 14:06 | tclarke | attendance will work like it did today, whoever is running the meeting calls role and everyone attending replies |
| 14:07 | tclarke | the meetings will be logged by the person running the meeting or a previously agreed upon secretary |
| 14:07 | tclarke | we'll announce a topic and discussion is open |
| 14:08 | tclarke | once it looks like a topic is finished or discussion should be stopped for some reason, the meeting head will announce a warning, give everyone a bit of time to get a last word in then announce the next topic |
| 14:09 | gmartin-cn | here BTW |
| 14:10 | tclarke | as for votes, the person running the meeting will ask a question and start voting |
| 14:10 | tclarke | if you'de like to vote for the issue, just respond with "+1" |
| 14:10 | tclarke | if you want to vote against, you don't need to say anything |
| 14:10 | tclarke | that should cover the basics so we'll move on the the next item |
| 14:10 | tclarke | anything further on this topic? |
| 14:11 | tclarke | ok, moving on, we'll move on |
| 14:11 | tclarke | there was a meeting of the core committers last week |
| 14:11 | tclarke | we discussed some direction of the project as a whole (including ball closed source pieces) |
| 14:12 | tclarke | I've put meeting notes of the relevant pieces for open source here: https://opticks.balldayton.com/cometwiki/MeetingNotes27Oct08 |
| 14:12 | tclarke | basically, we identified some features that we feel are important to add to Opticks |
| 14:12 | tclarke | not all of these features have government support (i.e. nobody has commited to pay for them) |
| 14:13 | kstreith | the goal was to identify major areas of improvement |
| 14:13 | tclarke | we will be propositioning the governement to add these features but we are also looking for open source developers to help out with some of this |
| 14:13 | kstreith | so that effort could be better focused |
| 14:13 | tclarke | I won;'t repeat everything in those meeting notes but we can discuss the big items |
| 14:14 | tclarke | and any areas of improvement not mentioned in that list so feel free to bring something else up |
| 14:14 | tclarke | the first major area is improvements to wizards |
| 14:14 | tclarke | including but not limited to: more resistance to changes in the opticks API, a more modern UI, and conditional/looping items |
| 14:15 | tclarke | the other main area involves custom layers (in plug-ins), a refactoring of the rendering pipeline (this has been mentioned on the dev mailing list) and real view based coordinate systems for better geospatial layout |
| 14:16 | tclarke | the meeting is open to discussion on these issues or any others people would like to bring up regarding important features |
| 14:17 | kstreith | i've mentioned before and I'll mention again that the view/rendering changes are the most important, IMHO |
| 14:18 | kstreith | i think not fixing these is starting to hold us back, IMHO |
| 14:18 | tclarke | this is a large feature set that will require work from quite a few people; not just coding but design and testing as well |
| 14:18 | tclarke | so it's crucial we get contributions from everyone involved in the project |
| 14:19 | kstreith | i agree |
| 14:19 | rforehan | agree |
| 14:20 | rforehan | Are we looking at 4.3.x or 4.4.x for the changes to view/rendering? |
| 14:21 | kstreith | on this issue, we don't have any current money/resources committed |
| 14:21 | kstreith | if anyone would like to us put some money/resources behind this, I'd be very grateful |
| 14:22 | rforehan | So we need to get customer buy-in or a lot of open-source community commitment. |
| 14:22 | tclarke | exactly...ideally we'll have both |
| 14:23 | tclarke | the main benefits of custom layers |
| 14:23 | tclarke | we can make a more efficient video layer |
| 14:23 | tclarke | developers will be able to write display layers for their custom element types |
| 14:23 | tclarke | the rendering pipeline refactor is an important part of custom layers |
| 14:24 | tclarke | the main benefit of geocentric views is that different layers will be able to better align, etc |
| 14:24 | tclarke | it will also allow other coordinate systems, etc. instead of just wgs84 |
| 14:24 | goffena | were 3rd floor folks needing changes to views |
| 14:24 | goffena | ? |
| 14:26 | kstreith | when i said that i think not doing this is causing us problems, i was referring to the folks associated with goffena |
| 14:26 | kstreith | meaning you guys keep wanting geo-coordinate views |
| 14:26 | goffena | i assume my folks charge number suppliers are aware of all this? |
| 14:26 | kstreith | since you guys seem to be very grumpy about the primary raster being the coordinate system |
| 14:27 | kstreith | goffena: i don't specifically know that one way or another |
| 14:27 | tclarke | goffena: we have not brought it up recently with them, but it would be important to pursue |
| 14:27 | tclarke | as they could provide some funding |
| 14:28 | goffena | you might start asking up the chain, starting with tjohnson, joverhol, wwolfe |
| 14:28 | tclarke | yes...we're bsically bringing this up now to get feedback on importance and get people thinking about it |
| 14:28 | tclarke | we'll work the funding chain concurrently |
| 14:28 | goffena | ok. i'm done interupting. |
| 14:29 | tclarke | ok, are there any further features people would like to see that are not mentioned in the notes I posted above? we're looking for larger longer term features, not necessarily specific jira issues |
| 14:29 | tclarke | another area that more relevant to the oss community |
| 14:29 | tclarke | is to add new functional areas |
| 14:30 | tclarke | such as sar, lidar, thermal, etc. |
| 14:30 | tclarke | video processing and general image processing are also hot issues |
| 14:31 | rforehan | Is there any timeline on when/if we'll move spectral plug-ins to open-source? |
| 14:31 | tclarke | we're still working that...they are undergoing an itar releasability review |
| 14:32 | tclarke | tjohnson is tasked to do that be he's swamped so it's going slowly |
| 14:32 | kstreith | rforehan: we should put the spectral plug-in release on the ehancement ideas |
| 14:32 | kstreith | but it's been slow going for a number of reasons |
| 14:33 | rforehan | I think we'll get more open-source inputs once Opticks has more functionality than importing and viewing. |
| 14:34 | rforehan | Right now you can't even view the spectrum for a pixel. |
| 14:34 | tclarke | rforehan: we may be able to enlist you to do some of the vetting....tjohnson was the obvious choice since he's been with the project for a long time and has more information on the origins of some algorithms, etc. |
| 14:34 | tclarke | but you may be able to help with some of it |
| 14:34 | tclarke | we can talk offline with the appropriate people about this |
| 14:35 | rforehan | Ok, I can try, but I've been out of the loop for a few years. |
| 14:35 | kstreith | rforehan: i'm glad you brought it up, since we should list it the rest of enhancements and we definetly need to focus effort on open-sourcing that |
| 14:36 | tclarke | ok, any further discussion on these topics? |
| 14:36 | tclarke | going once |
| 14:37 | tclarke | ok, lets move on then |
| 14:37 | tclarke | a brief discussion about the state and immediate future of opticks |
| 14:38 | tclarke | we're generally pretty stable at this point on 4.2.x |
| 14:39 | tclarke | we'll be maintaing 4.2.x as a binary compat line for a while |
| 14:39 | tclarke | but soon we'll be splitting the trunk and doing binary breaking development on trunk/future |
| 14:39 | kstreith | we currently have two 4.2.X releases planned |
| 14:40 | tclarke | at some point in this cycle we'll collapse the interfaces meaning we'll take all the *Ext interfaces which were written for binary compat and moving the functionality into the base interface |
| 14:40 | tclarke | to clean things up |
| 14:40 | kstreith | 4.2.3, the lockdown for code changes is 14 Nov, but any new changes need to be in by 7 Nov |
| 14:42 | kstreith | 4.2.3 final will be released on 9 Dec if all goes well |
| 14:43 | kstreith | 4.2.4, the lockdown for code changes is 30 Jan 09, new changes need to be in by 23 Jan 09 |
| 14:43 | kstreith | 4.2.4 final will be released on 24 Feb 09 if all goes well |
| 14:44 | kstreith | a message was sent out to the mailing lists on Sep 30th ( https://opticks.ballforge.net/ds/viewMessage.do?dsForumId=31&dsMessageId=9233 ), asking if anyone had money/resources to support 4.2.X past the 4.2.4 release |
| 14:44 | kstreith | but so far we have not received any responses, so 4.2.4 will be the final release on the 4.2.X line unless we hear otherwise |
| 14:46 | kstreith | another e-mail was sent out on Sep 30th, asking for ideas about what should be included in the 4.3.X binary breaking line (i.e. trunk/future) |
| 14:46 | kstreith | so far I haven't seen any responses |
| 14:46 | kstreith | if anybody has any ideas now, feel free to bring them up |
| 14:47 | kstreith | or you can reply to that e-mail post ( https://opticks.ballforge.net/ds/viewMessage.do?dsForumId=31&dsMessageId=9234 ) later when you have time. |
| 14:47 | *** | goffena (i=0cbc9d81@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-225ca8691000cfcc) has quit IRC ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] |
| 14:47 | kstreith | but it would be good to start focusing on 4.3.X |
| 14:47 | *** | goffena (i=0cbc9d81@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a9f63d7f72f8cdcc) has joined #opticks |
| 14:48 | tclarke | the 4.3.x lockdown will probably happen early next year (feb time frame) |
| 14:48 | tclarke | at which point, we'll decide if we need to continue the binary breaking trunk or hold off until 4.3.x has stabalized |
| 14:48 | tclarke | anyway, that's the genral state of affairs |
| 14:49 | tclarke | JIRA can be consulted for information on specific bugs and features |
| 14:49 | tclarke | I'll leave the discussion open for comments for a short time then we'll move on |
| 14:49 | tclarke | any comments on the schedule? |
| 14:52 | tclarke | ok, moving on |
| 14:52 | tclarke | the next few items will be discussed as one |
| 14:52 | tclarke | how do we get more contributions from outside developers? we've got some interested parties but there are a number of problems |
| 14:52 | tclarke | it's tough to get savy enough to work on the core |
| 14:53 | tclarke | and it's difficult to make non-code (mostly documentation) contributions |
| 14:53 | tclarke | we've got some ideas on both fronts |
| 14:53 | tclarke | but we also need to encourage people to work on new plug-ins |
| 14:54 | tclarke | we're working on a set of scripts that will make it easier to create the boilerplate and build environment for a new plug-in |
| 14:54 | tclarke | kstreith is working on improving general developer documentation |
| 14:54 | tclarke | he's also found a service called FLOSS manuals |
| 14:55 | tclarke | it's a wiki that's geared to making books |
| 14:55 | tclarke | it edits like a wiki, keeps track of all contributors to a book, and has various export capabilities (standalone html, pdf, etc.) |
| 14:56 | tclarke | he's stepped away for a moment so I'll open up the discussion until he's back to talk about floss manuals |
| 14:56 | tclarke | any ideas on encouraging contributions? making a new developer's life easier? or encouraging non-developers to contribute? |
| 14:57 | tclarke | I'll talk a little about FLOSS...we'd propose putting the user tutorials and possibly the online help into floss |
| 14:58 | tclarke | this would allow real-time editing by anyone with the usual versioning/CM one would want |
| 14:58 | tclarke | it's a relatively easy to use editor so you don't need to know html, latex, etc. to contribute |
| 14:58 | tclarke | hopefully it would shorten the documentation change cycle |
| 14:59 | tclarke | in the interest of time, I'll also open the discussion to any questions not covered |
| 14:59 | rforehan | I think we need to get opticks out to graduate students - make setting up build environment easy and provide more processing plug-ins as examples. |
| 14:59 | tclarke | so now's your chance to talk about whatever you'd like |
| 15:00 | kstreith | my short-term plans are as follows: |
| 15:01 | kstreith | create a nightly build system that creates complete downloads (i.e. SDK and Installers) on a nightly basis |
| 15:02 | kstreith | improve the new developer experience (this is the .dep changes and removal of OPTICKS_HOME, i've already been discussing on the mailing list, adding Microsoft Compiled Help (.chm) so that developers can search the docs) |
| 15:03 | kstreith | and also working with tclarke on his scripts to make setting up a new developer environment easier |
| 15:03 | kstreith | then I plan on focusing on docs |
| 15:03 | kstreith | developers docs - i.e. API help |
| 15:03 | kstreith | user docs - i.e. analysts |
| 15:03 | kstreith | specifically tutorials for the users in the short-term |
| 15:04 | kstreith | and then contributor docs - how do I give back to this project/how do I keep myself aware of what is happening |
| 15:04 | tclarke | improved developer experiance is currently our highest open source priority so we need whatever help you can give...we'd love contributions but just discussing your problems and frustrations on IRC and dev@opticks.ballforge.net is helpfull |
| 15:05 | kstreith | for the users docs and developer docs, specifically the getting started type of documentation, i think flossmanuals ( http://en.flossmanuals.net/ ) would be really good |
| 15:06 | kstreith | since it has an incredible low barrier to entry if someone wants to help improve it |
| 15:06 | kstreith | i.e. you don't need to know subversion, doxygen syntax, etc. to make a change |
| 15:07 | kstreith | you just create an account (30 seconds) and then use a WYSIWYG editor to make a change. |
| 15:07 | tclarke | I'd like to explore floss manuals over the next couple of weeks |
| 15:07 | kstreith | that's my summary of what I'm working on |
| 15:08 | tclarke | anyone interested should take a look at it...we can make a decision at the next meeting if we are going to use flossmanuals for certain documentation |
| 15:08 | tclarke | I'd like to see some discussion on the mailing list and IRC before then |
| 15:08 | tclarke | and we'll vote in two weeks to see if we'll proceed with flossmanuals |
| 15:09 | tclarke | there are certainly other parties not present today who have a lot of say in this decision so I'll ask kstreith to bring this up to applicable people and tell them to attend the next meeting if they wish to vote on the subject |
| 15:10 | tclarke | the vote will not be binding as there are people with the final say re: opticks (mostly the core commiters) but it will function as a recomendation |
| 15:12 | tclarke | anything else anyone wants to discuss this meeting? |
| 15:13 | tclarke | ok, open discussion is closed |
| 15:14 | tclarke | this meeting ran a bit long as it was our first...I expect most of these will be much shorter |
| 15:14 | tclarke | I encourage everyone to attend the next one |
| 15:14 | tclarke | in two weeks, same bat time, same bat channel |
| 15:14 | tclarke | the meeting notes for this meeting will be placed here https://opticks.balldayton.com/cometwiki/3Nov2008 |
| 15:14 | tclarke | this page: https://opticks.balldayton.com/cometwiki/OpenSourceMeetings will have a link to the next meeting's agenda |
| 15:15 | tclarke | for now, only some people can edit the agenda...for now, please email tclarke, kstreith, or dev@opticks.ballforge.net to add something to the agenda |
| 15:15 | tclarke | once we get it on the ballforge wiki, it will be open for anyone to add agenda items |
| 15:16 | tclarke | thank you all for attending and contributing, get other interested parties to attend furture meetings and I think we will all benefit |
| 15:16 | tclarke | I will not likely be attending the next meeting as I will be at a conference....in my absence, kstreith will probably run the meeting |
| 15:16 | tclarke | the meeting is officially over |
| *** | Closed channel log for #opticks at 11/3/2008 3:16:42 PM |